Remarkable Swiss Stories Through History | James Blake Wiener (#26)

Episode Summary

In this episode, we examine five moments in history that involve Swiss individuals. From maritime events to political roles and exploration, we explore how people from Switzerland engaged with global events. We discuss stories that illustrate various contributions and experiences of Swiss people beyond their home country.

Expect to learn about Swiss passengers on the Titanic and the controversial and horrific sinking of the Lusitania, the role of Albert Gallatin as a Swiss-born figure in American history, the expeditions of Swiss explorer Johann Ludwig Burckhardt, and the experiences of Ticinese migrants during the Australian Gold Rush. These narratives highlight different aspects of Swiss involvement in historical events across various periods and locations.

Meet James Blake Wiener

James Blake Wiener is a historian and writer, and a Co-Founder of the World History Encyclopedia. His work includes research and writing on global history, with a focus on cross-cultural exchanges and historical narratives involving individuals from Switzerland. He provides insights into Switzerland’s connections to broader historical contexts.

Contact James: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameswiener/

Full Transcript

Mike: [00:00:00] James, you know an awful lot about Swiss history and not just the big ticket items, which most well-read people would know about. You know, a lot about things which I did not even know existed. My first question to you is, how do you know so much about Swiss history?

James: Oh, it’s, I was trained. Well first, thank you for having me on the show. It’s a delight and a privilege to be here. I, I think of myself as a constant student. I’m a perennial student. I was trained as a historian. I went to New York University and I originally studied history and Middle Eastern Islamic studies.

And then on the graduate level, I studied world history. But I think just by reading as much as you can and also having an inquisitive mind, as I said, being that perennial student asking these questions and looking for answers, usually you can find exactly [00:01:00] what it is you’re looking for. And so I moved to Switzerland in 2018 and I confess I didn’t, I feel as though I didn’t know very much at all about Swiss history.

This is certainly not something that is very much on the ra radar in the United States, in academia, or a topic of conversation within society. But I was curious and my curiosity got the best of me,

Mike: I thought it would be good, to mention why you moved to Switzerland. I thought the project you’ve worked on and what brought you here is really interesting.

James: right? So I, it, it is kind of a funny story. So I’ve worked in academia, I have been a professor. History. History, although I think my true calling is in the domain of public relations, and I co-founded an EdTech startup. This was originally ancient history encyclopedia. It’s now World History encyclopedia based in Horsham.

If any of your listeners know Great Britain, you know that that’s outside of London and [00:02:00] very near Catholic Airport. I loved what I did. I got to work with some amazing archeologists, writers, researchers. I handled the communications department and we had won an award from the European Union for Open Access Education at the end of 2016.

So this is November, 2016. And I then needed to go onward from Brussels to meet curators in Paris and some curators in Zurich. And it was on that trip in November, 2016. I met my future spouse, totally unplanned. We had a whirlwind RO romance. We met in various parts of the world, including the United States.

We were in Spain together, also Russia, before sanctions. This was before the war in Ukraine. And I moved and relocated to Switzerland and got married in July, 2018. So that is what ultimately brought me [00:03:00] here.

Mike: Now to set the scene of this episode. So amongst the, a number of really beautiful articles, which you’ve written, on the Swiss Lenders Museum, blog, po blog site, I have selected six. And the reason I selected these six amongst all of them is because they particularly stood out and cover really interesting parts of global history where I really did not expect the Swiss to be involved and therefore really thought it would be worth spending a bit of time talking about them.

And for the listeners, this will be a bit of an experimental episode as we, we attempt to thread the six of them together in a fluid conversation. Let’s see how we go.

James: Let’s do it.

Mike: So starting with the first one is none other than the Titanic. Can you explain to me the relationship between the Swiss and the Titanic?[00:04:00]

James: This is something I found very interesting too. You have passengers and crew members. Score of Swiss origin on the Titanic. The passengers sailing on the Titanic in all three classes in first class, second class, and third class. And you have some crew members as well. So stewards and stewardess. And this really surprised me.

And in the course of my research, what I came to discover is that there were many, many interesting connections between Edward and Britain and be Park, Switzerland, Switzerland at the time. So 19 11, 19 12 did have very high incomes, actually higher incomes than Germany, France, and Italy. Its neighbors, but incomes were not as high as they were in the United States or in Great Britain.

So. We have a lot of movement back and forth, some [00:05:00] Swiss people who are migrating to Great Britain to take advantage, and find work in the great Edwardian houses to apprentice at restaurants and hotels, and also of course more, elite types, bankers and lawyers, setting deals with banks, law offices, commercial investments in London as well.

And so then it does sort of make sense, right, that there would be these Swiss interactions in Swiss dealings with Britain. We also have to keep in mind too, I think that at this time period, so I’ll use 1913, the year after the Titanic disaster as a benchmark, Britain was the largest trading nation in the world. 50% of global capital investment came from London. So there are tremendous opportunities in Great Britain for Swiss of all classes and all [00:06:00] backgrounds. The largest number of Swiss on the Titanic, actually, we can say this was in a special restaurant. This was in the a la carte restaurant. And these Swiss were mostly from Tocino and from the Roman d.

And they were working for a restaurateur from Northern Italy, Luigi Gati, who was running this restaurant as a concession. So it’s super, super interesting also this kind of business model, right? That within the Titanic you have this ship, which is famed not only for its luxury, but and beauty, but also for its cuisine.

You have this restaurant runs a concession and you have all these Swiss and Italians and French working together. It’s just a very interesting story. And the Swiss one, the Titanic, really reveal much about life, not only in terms of their interactions with Edward, Edward in England, but also with beak Switzerland too.

Mike: Can you define what, what is [00:07:00] Edward in England and Bella Pop, Switzerland.

James: So the beak era refers usually it’s. It’s, used in reference to French history, but I’ll use it more loosely. This is this period in European, history after about the year 1870 ending, with the advent of the First World War, the Great War in 1914. And this is used by continental historians. We could also call this, you know, turn of the century as well.

Turn of the century Switzerland. The edu Edwardian era is a little bit more neat and tidy. The Ed Edwardian era refers to the reign of Edward v seventh, who is the son of Queen Victoria, and he reigns from 1901 to 1910, and usually the edu Edwardian era is also extended a little bit further to 1914, to the first couple of years during the re of his son George, the v.[00:08:00]

Mike: Hmm. Interesting. And you said there was, there was a number of Swiss people on this ship. Were they predominantly employees or were they also traveling to the US as guests?

James: Well, you have immigrants in third class immigrating to the United States. You have well to do middle class passengers who have come from the United States to visit relatives in Switzerland and who are now returning home. And of course you have well-to-do bankers and lawyers and industrial, titans, so to say Swiss industrial titans.

So yeah, you have this interesting variety and that’s why I think it’s a very interesting crystal clear mirror of society as a whole at this critical point in time, 1912, which we can say is the apex of Edwardian life, Edwardian culture.

Mike: Mm. And you said that Switzerland was relatively wealthy, not as [00:09:00] wealthy as the uk, but doing quite well. What does wealthy, look like in Switzerland at that time?

James: Well, you have incomes that are much higher than they are in the neighboring countries in France and Germany, and especially Italy in particular, society. I should qualify this though. Society is still relatively unequal. You have a great deal of poverty in the countryside as you can’t imagine. And you know, if you’re a farmer in a poor alpine valley that’s overpopulated, the United States looks much more appealing than staying in Switzerland.

Also Great Britain can look more appealing to if you are an unskilled laborer, those salaries and those wages are still pretty low and you can make much more money in Great Britain or in comparison. So we should be careful about. Levels of income and reading too far into that.

Mike: It’s hard for me to imagine what the impression [00:10:00] of the US was like at this time before they made their mark on, on, on World War ii. What was the impression of the US like to, I guess you can say European or Swiss in this case? Is, is it still a, this magical place that anything can happen or is it before that image is there?

James: Yeah, I think you still have, especially amongst immigrants yearning for something new. America is the land of wishes, hopes and dreams. It’s the country where the streets are paved with gold, where opportunity is on every corner, right? And so there is tremendous interest in the United States. Also, we need to keep in mind when we speak of this era of, widespread and, mass migration from Europe to the United States.

So between the years, say 1830 to 1930, where you have 50 million Europeans leaving Europe, migrating primarily to North America, but also to South America. Think of Brazil and Argentina and also [00:11:00] 3 million go to Australia and New Zealand. Many of them are there temporarily. They’re there to work part-time or even seasonally.

And then they head back to their home country. And this is true of some of these Swiss immigrants as well. And so when they return home, they talk about the United States, the differences, what they liked, what they didn’t like. So people are learning about, the differences, the similarities, and also the opportunities that could await ’em and how their lives could improve potentially if they were to immigrate to the United States.

Mike: Mm. And now thinking about what it is like on the Titanic itself, I can just, I can’t imagine when you have all of these different languages, ’cause you’ve got all these different people, especially in the staff themself. You said that you’ve got a, a handful of people from Tocino or, and Romani.

How are people communicating?[00:12:00]

James: This is interesting. So on within the white Star line and also the ARD line, the ARD liners I should add, are Mauritania and Lusitania at this point in time for white star’s, Olympic and Titanic, there’s this unspoken rule that British nationals get preferential treatments in the hiring process. So they did prefer to hire British nationals, so people from Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and England.

Nonetheless, if you were Swiss and you had naturalized in Great Britain, or if you were married and had a British spouse and spoke English, you were pretty much allowed in. So most of the conversations were in English. You have to keep in mind a lot of these young, migrant workers had moved to England.

They had spent time in England. They had picked up the language by then, and they knew that they had to have a high degree of mastery of the [00:13:00] English language. If they were, for example, to work as a steward or stewardess or even in GA’s, restaurant.

Mike: Practically speaking for a 23-year-old from Basel. How do you actually go ahead and apply for a job on the Titanic in,

James: Ooh. Well, I mean, you have, and you still have this today, you have chain migration and you have, immigrant networks. Something that I found so interesting, especially with the case of the Teach Inness in Great Britain. So around the year 1880, there were over 150 teach inness shops and cafes in London.

So there is a network also. You have networks based on your local village or GAA and family networks too. So if you have an in, if you have an aunt or a cousin working on a white [00:14:00] star liner, sometimes you can get lucky and you can get an in. And this is how these networks work.

Mike: Was the expectation of quality I. Really high end.

James: Absolutely. Well, this Swiss had this reputation too. This is one reason why the Swiss were prized workers in Edward in England. They were seen as punctual. They were seen as multilingual. They were seen as orderly and polite. And these are all values that the Edwardians esteemed greatly.

Mike: I know that Austrian have a very strong reputation when it comes to hospitality. Was that also the case for the Swiss?

James: Absolutely. So there was a stereotype that the best hotel keepers were Swiss and Victorian and Edward England. Of course the British had seen because of their travels to Switzerland, just how effective and how [00:15:00] orderly the Swiss were. Of course, it’s this kind of flood of British tourism that, engenders the Swiss tourism sector, in the mid 18 hundreds.

Mike: Now specifically of the different people, the different Swiss people that were on the Titanic, do any of them in particular stand out as a really interesting story to you?

James: There were several. So, as I said, I really was interested in these, these men who are working in GA’s restaurants. Of course we have many more passengers than, crew members on the Titanic, but the concentration of men in Gabby’s restaurant are certainly interesting. There’s one woman in particular though, who I really, really found fascinating.

This is Emma Bliss, and she was a Roman lady who moved to England to work in a, in a Victorian grand country house in Dalton Abbey. And a few months [00:16:00] after she arrives in England, she runs off with the butler and they marry. I mean, this could be a soap opera, this could be a mini series from BBC or SRF.

And they have this life and it’s, clearly they’re very much in love. There’s not as much stability in the early years than there are in the later years. She, they have children and she’s working on a different white star liner and she transfers to the Titanic and she’s a stewardess, I believe in second class.

And something that I really liked about her, she had the great ity to realize something was really off after the ship struck an iceberg and she abandoned her post. She got in the lifeboat and she survived. And I, this is something you see with the Swiss and with Swiss immigrants. There is this resourcefulness and there’s this really interesting sense of urgency.

They get things [00:17:00] done. So I really liked her. Also, I do like Ms. Inger. She was a maid, a lady’s maid to this lady who’s a bit Demi Mondan, she was the nightclub owner in Paris, Nette Obert, who was the mistress of Benjamin Guggenheim,

Mike: I

dunno who that is. Sorry.

James: Benjamin Guggenheim. Oh goodness. Oh, Benjamin Guggenheim is one of the wealthiest men in the United States at this point in time, and he’s Jewish.

And so you can imagine what a scandal that was, you know, as this Catholic demi Mondan nightclub owner in quote, cavorting around with. Benjamin Guggenheim, although they were in separate cabins. But Emma, was put on a lifeboat along with Nettes by Benjamin Guggenheim, who did them Fawn Farewells in German.

And later on she does go back to [00:18:00] Switzerland and she has this very interesting career. She marries and she works at Yaul as well as globus in Zurich. So I mean, you, these stories you just can’t make up. They’re so colorful. And this is why I loved my work, researching this was Titanic. Passengers, they just are larger than life.

They’re so colorful, but yet accessible too, and very humane.

Mike: Humane, I think is a good word to put it. I’m also just blown away by the level of granularity, you know, these people’s lives. Where do you get this information from when you’re doing your research?

James: Well, you have a lot of books in French, German, and English, and Encyclopedia Titana is a great resource and it’s online, you know, the Titanic has been researched ad nauseum. I mean, the Titanic disaster is really part of the human consciousness at this point in time. So if there’s something you really want to know, you can find it in a book or you can reach out and [00:19:00] ask an expert.

Mike: Any of the Swiss survivors? Did they ever get interviewed or post the crash to talk about their experience and what it was like?

James: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. And you can find those online. There’s one good SRF interview in particular.

Mike: Now I wanted to use that as a not so subtle segue into another one of your stories, which is still very closely on the same topic, which is the sinking of huge, beautiful boats. This one less well known, but to be honest, I found more fascinating and more interesting given the context, which was the Lucit.

Tania,

James: Yes,

Mike: can you please talk me through Lucit, Tania? Maybe because everyone knows the Titanic, probably due to the film. Can you explain to me first what the lucinia was? And then we can go into what led up to it [00:20:00] sinking.

James: sure. And it’s interesting for me to hear you say that you found the Lusitania disaster more compelling because this is what Swiss readers told me as well. They were more, I received so many emails about the Luan and. Really interesting, really interesting takes on the Nia Disaster and also the poignancy of the various stories of those passengers who had connections to Switzerland who were on board.

So it is interesting. You cannot have the Titanic without the Nia. The Nia is, is built by the Kard line, and it’s launched in 1906 and it enters service in 1907. And at that point in time, it is the world’s largest, most luxurious, ocean liner and Kard line had received some money from the British government to construct the Lusitania and a [00:21:00] sister ship, the moan, and this was done so that the Kard line could remain independent. From JP Morgan’s conglomerate of companies, the international, mercantile Marine Corporation, which the white star line was a part of by the way. And the Nia was a technological marvel. So there were over 230 kilometers of electrical wiring in the Lusitania. Her two anchors weighed 10 tons each, beautiful interior.

She’s kind of the original, British luxury liner. We can say. She set the gold star and the gold standard. She and the her sister ship the Mauritania and they were also both ships very, very fast. Ultimately, the Mauritania was just slightly faster at 25 knots than the Lucinia, but they both held the blue ribbon bond.

This was The [00:22:00] award for the fastest passenger liner crossing the Atlantic Ocean Luan was the first passenger liner to cross the Atlantic Ocean in under five days. And she was just a marvel. She became, a household name around the world and she served the public for almost eight years. And on her last voyage, the 200, and first, she was torpedoed by a German new boat, another marvel of technology.

And this is where the controversy, begins. Was she a legitimate target of war, was she not? The Nia is a much more, I feel complicated story than the Titanic. The Titanic is really, I. It’s a self encapsulated story, right? Because it happens independent of war. This ocean liner that strucks an iceberg in the middle of the Atlantic [00:23:00] Ocean Lusitania occurred.

Nia disaster rather occurred during wartime, and we still don’t have all the questions as to how she sank so quickly. She sank in 18 minutes as opposed to two hours and 40 minutes, which was the case with the Titanic. There are still questions about how much, munitions were on board. The Nia there were munitions.

The amount declared on the manifest was 170 tons. Maybe it could have been more, mu is a bit more murky and I think that’s why also some people find it perhaps a little bit more compelling.

Mike: And so timeline wise, Lusitania first launches 1906. The Titanic’s first and only voyage was 1911, and then Lu

1912, sorry. And then the luan sinks 1915.

James: Lucita sinks May, [00:24:00] 1915.

Mike: it’s really running successfully, backwards and forwards for almost 10 years.

James: Yeah. And the Lucin came to represent kind of that long Edwardian summer. I mean, this is a ship that had three classes of service. It had elevators, it had smoking rooms, beautiful dining salons done in the style of Louis the 16th. Stunning state rooms. It and Als. It also liked the Titanic in many ways, embodied those Edwardian virtues of class distinction of order of decorum.

The Nia was a symbol of commerce too. Of course, Nia and her sister ship the Moia had helped the ARD line capture a large share of the transatlantic passenger trade. So she represents many different things too. But above all, I think she represents the confidence that the Edwards had in their [00:25:00] culture and in their empire.

Mike: And you, so this is a officially a passenger ship between the UK and the us, but what you said before was it was carrying munition. So during World War I, the Great War, this was also moving weaponry and all sort of artillery between the US and the UK store aboard. Is that what you meant?

James: Correct. So nobody says this, and I’m not sure why, but the Lucenia was essentially a blockade runner masquerading as a passenger ship. What happens is the British declared, a blockade against Imperial Germany and the Germans countered by declaring the zone, the geographic zone around the British Isles.

As an area of under restrained submarine warfare, the Germans knew that the Lusitania was carrying munitions. The Germans have spies [00:26:00] everywhere. Also. I wanted to ask you, what percentage of the US population at this point in time do you think had ties to German or identified as German American?

Mike: Oof. You’re probably gonna get me to embarrass myself here. I have no idea. But it would be a very, very small percentage. I mean, at this point in time, well, geez, people who won’t be able to know what I just saw, but I just got, a look from James indicating that the number is greater than what my original thought was.

James: No, no, no, no. Even Americans don’t know this. It’s about 30%. So, yeah. So the German American population in terms of its size and in terms of its importance, mirrors that of the LaTicino population in the United States today?

Mike: Really? Wow. I mean, my, my, my, my connection to, the Germans living in, the US is basically Amish people. That was about where my, which probably isn’t that [00:27:00] correct, but that’s interesting. Why so many? Where, what’s the history of that?

James: Of why Germans

Mike: there’s so, like the percentage of Americans that have immigrated from Germany, 30% is such a large number.

James: So the, at that point in time, around 30% of the population identified as German or German American. This is, say 1910 or so. Well, they immigrated to the United States for political reasons quite often. Many were liberals who were on the wrong side in the revolutions of 1848. Germans were encouraged to settle certain areas like Wisconsin and Ohio, and they came to state their claims through various homestead acts and Germans were wildly successful.

Too many Germans set up businesses, import and export businesses in the United States. I speak of this [00:28:00] because this is actually my own family’s background, and they later moved operations to the United States and settled in Wisconsin. In my case.

Mike: I guess when you hear about different groups of immigrants in the US you hear about Italian Americans, Irish Americans, you hear about the huge Jewish population. You never hear German Americans.

James: Well, why, why don’t we hear about German Americans?

Mike: I guess they’re not in Hollywood movies as much. I’m not sure.

James: Well, that too, but I think it’s also because of what happens in World War I and certainly what happens in World War ii. So German Americans were forced to shed their hyphenated identities, so as not to be identified as Nazis, but also not to be associated with perceived crimes like that, of the sinking of the Lusitania.

Mike: hmm. Now going back to the Swiss, there was fewer Swiss people on the Nia than there were the [00:29:00] Titanic,

James: Yeah. There, there, there are three in particular. Yeah.

Mike: Did any of them survive? I.

James: One survived. Yes. John Frederick Diner survived and his father was Swiss. His father was in the hospitality sector originally working in the Roman D even though he was dea. And he immigrated to Liverpool and he later married the, the daughter of Irish immigrants.

This was common too, amongst Swiss migrants, especially to Great Britain. They married within the local population fairly quickly, oftentimes within the first generation. And John Diner, John Friedrich Diner was one of his sons and like his father, he was interested in the hospitality sector and working in hotels.

And John Frederick got the opportunity to work in the first class Dining saloon in onboard the Lucit Tanium. [00:30:00] And this was actually. Quite a lucrative position. I know we don’t think of say waiters or wait staffs or stewardesses as earning that much money, but they were fairly well compensated. And this is a fairly prestigious position.

You’re sailing on one of the most famous ships in the world and serving in its first class dining salon. So you’re rubbing up next to, industry titans from the United States, from Great Britain royalty, actors and actresses. This is not necessarily a bad gig, although the hours were quite long

Mike: Mm.

James: and he had just finished his, lunch shift when the luan torpedoed and he’s actually lucky.

What happens when the luan torpedoed is that the ship immediately lists to starboard. To its [00:31:00] starboard side at a very strong angle, making it difficult for people to climb up the stairs, even to get to the boat deck. Also, the power goes out after four minutes, so people are shrouded in darkness. People are trapped in elevators.

You hear testimonials from survivors and they describe the screens coming from inside the ship as blood curdling and really, really just horrifying. He makes it out to the boat deck on the port side. So as I said, the Lusitania is listing heavily to starboard. What happens to the lifeboats on the starboard side, they swing out outwards, so it’s difficult for people to get into them.

It’s the opposite. On the port side, they swing inwards, so it’s difficult for crew, the crew members to launch ’em. Also [00:32:00] something I should say too is because it was wartime, those most able-bodied semen were called up to duty by the Royal Navy. So the caliber and quality of those semens still on board.

The Lucita a little questionable, actually, quite questionable. More often than not, the crew was unable to launch the lifeboats and they dumped the human cargo into the Atlantic Ocean and people were crushed. It’s really just horrifying. The Titanic is kind of a, I’ve always said the Titanic is a two hour, 40 minute long opera in which the last 15 minutes are very depressing.

Linia is an 18 minute horror flick. It’s, it’s really graphic. It’s really just so horrible. And John Friedrich sees [00:33:00] all of this. He decides I’m not going to get in a lifeboat. And he simply goes down with the shep like a lot of other people. And that was actually a wise decision on his part. He somehow manages to grab hold of a deck chair, and he clings to this deck chair for nearly three hours and 11 degree water until he’s rescued.

Mike: And he must be floating by himself really, if he’s in a little chair.

James: Well, he is surrounded by bodies, by debris. It’s, it’s horrific. It’s absolutely horrific. You read these, these stories in these firsthand accounts of people who didn’t know how to put on their life vests correctly. So they put it on improperly and then they’re flipped over and they go feet first in the water. You read stories about people being attacked by seagulls. [00:34:00] It’s, it’s really horrific. And I think this is one reason too why the lucita has not gained the attention it deserves. It was so horrible and so violent. Whereas with the Titanic disaster, ’cause the Titanic is a Edwardian morality play. You have heroes.

The men put their women into boats. It’s very orderly until the last 15 minutes when the ship breaks in half and 1500 people are still on board. That is horrible. But yeah, there’s this fine demarcation between heroics, and also villain.

Mike: What

James: And that appeals Edwards.

Mike: what was the official response of Germany at the time? Was this a Yes, we know what we did and we did it because we know that you have munition on board? Or is this a, ah, sorry. We thought it was a different ship.

James: Absolutely. So the Germans blamed the British. So before the Lu, actually, the day the Lusitania sailed, there were [00:35:00] advertisements placed in New York papers warning passengers on traveling on Atlantic, transatlantic ocean liners, that if they weren’t to sail with vessels sailing, with the flag of Great Britain or of Britain’s allies, so Imperial Russia and France, they were liable to destruction in British territorial waters that this was a war zone.

And this was the Imperial Germans, attempt to dissuade people from sailing on ships like the Lusitania. And so when the Lusitania sank, the German response was essentially, well, we warned you. We told you so, and they claim that this was a ship carrying munitions, which is correct. However, the people, the, the passengers on the Lucenia were very innocent.

They had nothing to do with war. And that’s what makes this tragedy perhaps even more harrowing and [00:36:00] so sobering, really.

Mike: And given that there is clearly someone to blame, argue who specifically is up for debate, I suppose, whether it’s pipe, German, pipe, British, but clearly there is someone to blame. What is the does is, does Switzerland or other countries have, governments have official responses to this?

James: So the Swiss did launch a protest. They sent a protest message to Berlin, Baron did. And the Swiss papers were resoundingly, negative. In so far as how they saw the disaster, especially the Tribune de de Jev, many people were shocked, many people were angered that this was a breach of civilized behavior in decorum.

This was also asked for compensation and restitution. I’m not sure that ever came. Nonetheless, I am, I’m going to spend this a little bit differently. So I am American by birth. [00:37:00] What’s interesting, I think, is the fact that under neutrality laws, at this particular point in time, the us, their position was, were angry that over 120 Americans died.

Nonetheless, we did not breach any of our neutrality laws. And here’s why. If you are an independent American firm selling ammunitions or guns or armaments to the British government, that’s between the British government and those respective companies, that’s not the, the US government is outside of that equation, and that was their stance.

Mike: that that’s even during wartime, that still applies.

James: Yes. And something else people don’t know is that the sale of [00:38:00] munitions in 19 14, 19 15 had created a trade surplus of $1.5 billion, and this had pulled the US out of a recession. It’s crazy. So when we try to ascribe blame in this disaster, it’s really difficult to assign it to one party, and I think this is.

Also is another reason why the Lenia is so compelling and so curious.

Mike: Now I wanted to use the, to use the mention of the, the US government as a poor segue into our next conversation. And rewind the clock about a hundred years. To another story, which I found absolutely fascinating. I don’t know much about, the history of the US and the founding fathers, but nonetheless, this was a really amazing story and it was almost hard to believe how involved one Swiss person was in this story.

[00:39:00] Can you tell me and the listeners about Albert Gallatin and his journey into essentially becoming a founding father of the us?

James: So I would argue that Albert Gallatin is the US’ Swiss founding father. He’s born in Geneva. He’s a bright young man who’s enthusiastic about the news he hears from the United States with regard to the American Revolution. He’s a young man who’s inspired by the ideals of Montesquieu and sau, and he decides to immigrate to the United States at the age of 19.

And he arrives in the United States. He teaches French for a while. He’s also in a scheme that is not very successful to bring Swiss farmers to the United States. But his intelligence and his diligence is noted by some very [00:40:00] powerful and key influential people in American ministry like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin.

He is a senator and he’s in the House of Representatives, and eventually he becomes over the course of his life, the longest serving Secretary of the Treasury, and he’s the chief nemesis or rival to Alexander Hamilton. And you probably know this, Mike, there’s this musical Hamilton.

Mike: famous. Yes.

James: Yeah, that’s been wildly popular.

I’ve never seen it. You know, Albert Gallatin is not. Which I think is very, very interesting. So unfortunately, Gallatin, by virtue of having a personality that is a little less colorful and a little less flamboyant than Alexander Hamilton is often sidelined. But I think Gallatins contributions to the United States are [00:41:00] tremendous and ought to be celebrated, especially as next year in the United States.

We commemorate the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

Mike: Can you describe what the, what the US is going through at this time? So this is the late 1717 hundreds. Can you explain what the US is going through at this time?

 What are they trying to create that’s not there already? That’s so significant to the success of the us. Mm-hmm.

James: trying to create a vision of a new nation, and let’s pick the year 1800, for example. And let’s kind of dissect the differences between Alexander Hamilton and, and Gallatin. So, Alexander Hamilton. Belonged to the Federalist Party like John Adams, the US second president, and they advocated for a strong federal government.

They advocated for a treasury, [00:42:00] which was subordinate to this strong federal government. And Alexander Hamilton’s opinion of debt was actually fairly positive. This could be a tool to strengthen a strong federal government. Of course, debt can be sold resold and refinanced. Gallatin is different. Albert Gallatin belonged to the Democratic Republican party like Thomas Jefferson.

They believed in a smaller government. They believed that big governments were prone to tyranny. They believed in states rights. And they also believed that yes, it was necessary to have a treasury, but they should be careful with debt. Debt was something Albert Gallatin believed, could bring down a great nation.

And so they have just kind of polar opposite views, [00:43:00] financially and also philosophically when it comes to governments. Gallatin is very much a diplomat. He is very pragmatic. He speaks fluent French, he’s very suave. But he’s, as I said, his personality. He’s not flamboyant like Hamilton. You do, you know how Hamilton died?

You probably know this.

Mike: Hmm. I think is it risky to make assumptions like that? No. I dunno how he died.

James: He died in a dual and I think that explains, I. Hamilton is a, you know, fly by the seat of your pants kind of guy. Gallatin is much more stereotypically Swiss in this regard. He is super intelligent, but yet he knows he has to be visionary too. He sees that the US has heavy debts to France. ’cause of course France is an ally of the US in the [00:44:00] American Revolution, and Gallatin is trying to balance these different variables because he really believes in the potential of this new nation if it were to solidify and if he could bring down the amount of debt in the country.

Mike: One thing that really shocked me, not shocked me, but surprised me is so. From your article, I remember reading, so he left Geneva to come to the US when he was 19 years old. And you said that he really didn’t have much of a clear plan in terms of what he was going to do, and then he ends up being just one of the most influential people in the US at that time.

What, like what is the process that he, before getting into government, what are the stages that he took to get there?

James: Well, I mean, he did enter Go government, the government, he was a senator and he becomes very close with Thomas Jefferson. [00:45:00] Something I would say too, Gallatin in his personal relationships always kind of finds an even keel. When I look at Alexandra Hamilton, there’s a lot of passion, but. Yeah, he, he kind of ruffles people’s feathers in a way that Gallatin did not.

Gallatin is surrounded by very intelligent people who are able to guide him and propel him and support him and mentor him. And this is not just in the realm of politics, this is also in the realm of finance. John Jacob Astor, his best friend.

 Is back in that say 18. The way politicians are elected still through public vote, and fundamentally, it’s still the same as today in terms of your half of your job is persuading the population that you are the right choice.

James: Yes. Although [00:46:00] I think that Right. But I think policy mattered and I think Albert Gallatin steered a path, yeah. He steered a path. Of finding an, finding the golden meme. He really had a vision for the country as an economically viable, as an independent nation, as a nation unencumbered by debt and ponderous foreign obligations.

Mike: Hmm.

James: So I think he, he developed a clear vision fairly early on. I mean, we have to be fair, as you said, he was 19 when he first gotta the United States. Things were very different. By the time he was 25 or 30,

Mike: Yeah, but I guess there’s no, there’s no formal education.

James: He was very well

Mike: he was very, but

James: very

Mike: he studied in the US then, ’cause I mean, in 19 years old, how much education have you got as a 19-year-old?

James: Well, this is a different time and this is a [00:47:00] different place. He was very well educated. He comes from a very prominent Geneva, Patricia family who had the means to educate him properly. He had a special interest in politics and in philosophy and economics, and that stayed with him his entire life.

Mike: Interesting. Now this is at risk of going down a rabbit hole, but I really wanted to ask this because one of the things which I know that he assisted in is the pur purchase of Louisiana from Napoleon at the time, which I did not even know Napoleon owned Louisiana. At any point in time I. Can you explain how and why the French owned Louisiana at that time?

James: Sure. So I have to go back a bit further in time, as some of your listeners will know, and you probably know this too, in North America, the French had several colonies. They had Quebec, they had Acadia, and [00:48:00] they had Louisiana. The Louisiana Colony is set up. 1682 and it’s named after yours. Truly, the Sun King Louis xiv.

New Orleans is established in 1718. You probably know this, and also your listeners too, that during the seven years war, the French lost most of their holdings in the new world. They lost Quebec and they lost Louisiana. Their Louisiana territory is divided in two. The British get the parts, parts of the Louisiana Colony that are to the east of the Mississippi River.

The Spanish get the parts of the Louisiana Colony that are to the west of the Mississippi River. There’s a special relationship between the Spanish monarchy and the French monarchy at this point in time because they are both related to the [00:49:00] Bourbon Dynasty. In fact, the Spanish Bourbon Dynasty is an offshoot of the French Bourbon Dynasty.

So the French do this in 1762 so that the British don’t get all of Louisiana. So there’s some double dealing there. So now let’s fast forward about 40 years to the era of Napoleon. Napoleon wants to create a continental French empire, but there has been a slave revolt in Sandman. This is present day Haiti.

In the Caribbean. You would like to recover Sandman. Why? Sandman was one of the richest places in the world because of the sugar trade, undertaken by slave labor. Of course. He invades Iberia, Spain, and Portugal. And as a concession from the Spanish, he receives back that [00:50:00] part of Louisiana that had formally belonged to France.

So Napoleon wants to have his hands in two cookie jars. He wants to have his continental French empire as well as perhaps an empire in the new world. Why not? This ultimately doesn’t happen. There’s an expeditionary force sent to Sandman and it ends in disaster. And so Napoleon quickly realizes the cost and expenditures aren’t worth it. Let’s sell Louisiana to the United States. We certainly don’t wanna give it to the British. The British are our enemies, and Gallatin is the one who negotiates the Louisiana purchase for 15 million us. And this doubles the size of the United States.

Mike: What was the value of Louisiana strategically at that time? I mean, were [00:51:00] they, what were they rich in for it to be worth holding onto?

James: There is significant wealth in New Orleans, although at this time, point in time, new Orleans is not as important of a player in Napoleon’s grand strategy. We have to keep in mind that the Mississippi River is one of the greatest arteries in North America. So it has tremendous strategic importance. And so that’s why Louisiana was part of this calculus by Napoleon in potentially reconstructing a French empire in North America.

Mike: Given the contribution he made to the us, is Gallatin a well-known figure amongst Swiss people, do you think?

James: No, no, no, no. Sadly he’s not there. There is a street named after him in Geneva.

Mike: Hmm.

James: But many Swiss have no idea who Gallatin is. And I think that’s a real shame. [00:52:00] And as I said, I think when we began talking about Gallatin, I hope that the Swiss reconsider Gallatin because next year is a big year in the United States celebrating the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

And I think that would be a great time for Swiss and Americans both to reconsider this man, who. Really left a very important mark in shaping the fortunes of the United States. We really, really owe a debt of gratitude to Gallatin. I I went to New York University and New York University was founded by Gallatin.

It’s funny, our, our content management system was called Albert. So, I mean, Gallatin was omnipresent at NYU, but I also think a lot of Americans have no idea who he is, and that is a big shame. I think too, he’s somebody who bridges cultures [00:53:00] in many ways. He remained the quintessential Geneva as this pragmatic, soft spoken, diplomatic man.

But he was somebody who believed in the American dream and in the principles of New World, democracy. So I also think he’s a nice bridge between Switzerland and the United States too.

Mike: Do you think he was famous in Geneva or Switzerland at that time?

James: No, but he was, he did correspond with people still in Switzerland when he was ambassador to France, US Ambassador to France. He made frequent visits to Geneva and he was quite glad to see family members and dear close friends. But he’s not, he doesn’t loom in the Swiss consciousness, I would say. And he’s certainly not in the curricula in Swiss schools.

Mike: Do you know what Napoleon’s opinion of him was?

James: I don’t know. He was very good [00:54:00] friends with Madame, though

he did know Madam De and Madam De was also very good friends with Thomas Jefferson. I suspect Napoleon respected. Gallatin and I think he was relieved that Gallatin understood. French Gallatin is the only native French speaker amongst, the American founding fathers.

Mike: When you are choosing these interesting people to write about you, you are just looking through all of history and then you just, something picks up and you go, Hmm, that’s interesting and I want to go more. How are you choosing these people to know so much about?

James: I like finding Swiss people at critical junctures in world history. I think that makes for interesting storytelling and sometimes I can tell stories that Swiss people are not so familiar with, but stories that I think they will enjoy and that’s rewarding for [00:55:00] me.

Mike: what comes first? Do you look at the interesting points of history and see where do the Swiss fit in?

James: Yeah, well, Swiss people are everywhere and we’re everywhere. And yeah, I like finding them in these unusual places or at these critical junctures in in world history or European history. I think it makes for colorful and thought provoking storytelling.

Mike: The next one, I found an absolutely incredible story. And I really, really enjoyed reading it. If you ever chose to go in more detail about this guy, I’m sure there’s a lot more story to tell. And which is the Johan Ludwig Burkhart, a really incredible. Story of exploration.

Can you explain to me who he is and why he’s so famous? Well, why his story is so special, I think maybe he isn’t as famous as he should be.

James: Right. So I mean, I think some Swiss people do know that he rediscovered Petra. [00:56:00] He’s the European man who rediscovered Petra. I think they don’t know that he was a researcher. He was something of a clandestine agent for the British during the Napoleonic Wars operating in the Near East, in particular in the Levant.

So what is present day? Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and Israel. Later he goes to Egypt and he also goes to what is now Saudi Arabia. He had a remarkable talent. He comes from a Patricia family, that is renowned in Basel, the Bohart family, and he had a remarkable linguistic talent.

And he also is anti Napoleon Napoleonic in terms of his sentiments. And after the disastrous battles at Alus, where the Austrian are decimated by the French forces of Napoleon in the Battle of Vienna, the next year [00:57:00] in 1806, where Napoleon decimate the Prussians, he sees Great Britain. It’s the only remaining power that can defeat Napoleon. And so he goes to Great Britain. He wanted to become a civil servant. It didn’t quite work out that way. He instead joins the African Association, which was this group of intellectuals who wanted to research the origins and the exact pathway of the Nigel River in Africa. Francis Bacon says, knowledge is power.

At this period in time, you not only have imperial rivalries between Britain and France, but you have a rivalry with the accumulation of knowledge. You may be familiar, Mike, with the Rosetta Stone, right? The French are trying to decipher the Rosetta Stone. They’re trying to be the first ones to decipher ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. [00:58:00] That’s part of this puzzle too. Well, the British are in interested in cultural and geographical information, and he goes to the Near East to perfect his Arabic. He adopts a pseudonym, which is so wild. I mean, you can’t make this up. Sheik I knew and

Mike: that was his net. That was what he adopted. Shik. I Ibrahim,

James: yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was his pseudonym and he became very interested in Petro the ancient naan city, which is in present day.

Jordan comes something of a, of a passion and of a goal for him to visit and put it on the map. And he does, and this is remarkable, but where I think Berkhart is so. I think Burkhart’s real [00:59:00] importance, lies, it lies in his body of work. He wrote many texts about Arab culture, religion, ritual practices, texts about the art and architecture in the of the Near East, especially the archeological ruins he’s very interested in, and he writes his works in a vein that is not only objective, but is also quite vivid as well.

And this is exceptional and this is where.

Mike: His, his stories, he’s essentially. Journaling and documenting everything he does, how is he traveling? So he is going mostly by ship and entering these countries by coast or he’s going traveling through countries on horseback. What does it look like?

James: Yeah, so I mean, he’s, a lot of the travel he did by himself, of course he travels by ship across the Mediterranean to get to [01:00:00] the Levant.

Mike: is insane to imagine. He’s going by himself, by ship to all these incredibly remote places.

James: I love, you know, this is something too, I tell my Swiss friends, they, they joke about the Swiss being risk averse. And then I think of people like Madam Desal or Gallatin or Burkhart. I mean, he really went into the unknown and just like when he discovered Petro, he had hired a guide and then the guide abandoned him a. He finds Bedouin, he’s able to speak to them in Arabic and says, like, to go to Petra. And they take him through. It’s remarkable, right? So he is doing this reconnaissance, reconnaissance work most of it on his own. He’s very worried about being discovered is true identity, identity being revealed. So he is a little surreptitious, he is very careful about where and how he takes notes.

He does [01:01:00] perfect his Arabic, but he claims that he’s a, a native Hindustani speaker and from South Asia. And then when people ask to hear Hindustani, he speaks Swiss German,

Mike: What?

James: which is wild,

Mike: is wild. I’m trying to,

James: which is absolutely.

Mike: no one on Earth understands Swiss German outside of, well, I. The Swiss German, the Canton that they’re in. What does that mean? If you are in Petra and you discover this foreigner speaking Swiss German, what do you think they make of that at that time, do you think if they hear Swiss German, he’s in trouble, he has to keep that a secret or his life’s at risk is that, that foreigners are not welcome?

James: Well, he really wants to be in service to Great Britain, so he takes his work quite seriously. I think locals just would’ve not had any idea. This was [01:02:00] German aspect is a very good cover. He’s very clever. Yeah, he’s absolutely, he’s so clever, I must say. And he really picked up Arabic. A degree of Arabic where he could pass as a native speaker.

So even if somebody, said, oh, your accent’s a little funny, usually he could smooth things over. So he’s very, yeah, smooth operator. Maybe that’s his, his other alias.

Mike: Hmm. Whatever happened to him? My understanding is he didn’t live for so long, unfortunately.

James: So all these journeys out into the desert and into the wilderness took their toll. And he died at the age of 33. And he’s buried in Cairo, not too far from the district. That is called Heliopolis. And there is a tomb

Mike: Hmm.

James: there, there is a grave. One of the big debates surrounding his life is whether or not he inverted to Islam and whether or [01:03:00] not this conversion was genuine. I’m of the opinion. It was genuine. He did visit Mecca and Medina and his tomb, his grave is well respected. It’s not venerated, but he, he’s well respected and he’s not seen through an imperialist lens by the Arabs. He seemed kind of as a colorful hero in, in the Islamic world. So much so that the late King Hussein awarded him posthumously with a, with a medal

Mike: Who is King Hussein? Who is the king of,

James: of Jordan

Mike: Jordan?

James: or Jordan.

This is the father of the current king. So, yeah, interesting. But life cut short.

Mike: What is the legacy that he left behind? What, in for, in the, in the field of exploration [01:04:00] and discovery. What progress did he make for the, what was the name of the institution? He was with the, African Association.

James: Yeah, well, he never, you know, just when he’s about to get ready to go into the Sahara, he dies. The years of roughing it up took their toll, unfortunately. But it is the body of information that Burkhart, consolidated at Behar recorded was an invaluable resource to the British moving forward into the Pax Britannica, this great age where Britain is.

The leading superpower worldwide. So while Burkhart, I don’t see Burkhart necessarily as an orientalist, I don’t see Burkhart as an agent of imperialism either. It is true that some of his works were later used by people [01:05:00] in imperialist enterprises and in colonial exhibitions and so forth. Nonetheless, as I said earlier, I think there’s, there’s a wonderful human element represented in his work.

He is not prejudiced, he is, his writing is vivid. It’s very clear, it’s very objective, and it’s very respectful too. And I think that’s kind of a wonderful legacy that reflects on him quite nicely.

Mike: Is he remembered in any way? Still in Switzerland, in in Basel. Is there somewhere where you can go with his name on it?

James: There have been, there was an exhibition several years ago and part of this exhibition in Basel, discussed Burkhart and his exploration and his work for the British, and of course Petra as well. But he’s another figure that is not [01:06:00] necessarily so well known. Also, as I said, you know, there is this debate whether burkhart or not really genuinely converted to Islam.

Burkhart arguably is the first well-known Swiss convert to Islam,

Mike: Hmm.

James: and so that’s quite interesting too. Yeah, so very dynamic figure, very colorful, very unusual,

Mike: The, opposite of the Swiss stereotype, I And I guess that’s probably a pretty common theme to be honest, across a lot of these stories that you’re telling today. It really proves that the stereotype of the Swiss really is not a good snapshot of what so many people are.

The story which I’m most excited about and selfishly chose because it’s quite close to home, is the involvement in the Australian gold rush.

This is something in every, every Australian learns in school at some point, right? The gold rush in a, growing up in a [01:07:00] country town in Australia is like learning about World War II when you live in Europe. I mean it’s in terms of the significance of our country. And then you find out that there’s a large amount of titch and easy find their way over to get a piece of it.

I thought, what a fascinating story. Can you ex, can you start starting from the beginning? How does the news of the gold rush going on in Australia make its way to Switzerland?

James: What people are interested in these gold rushes. Of course, from an American perspective, when we think of the gold rush, we think of California, of course, and the gold rush in California in the 1840s. And there were Swiss involved in the Californian gold rush too, and some Swiss had made their fortunes.

So gold is on the mind of people in Switzerland. This is seen, you know, if you go out prospecting for gold, whether it’s in California or Australia, I mean, this is so exotic for people in mid, 19th century Switzerland. [01:08:00] So news to travel. And Ticino at this point in time, is likely the poorest Canton in Switzerland.

Mike: We, we wanna say this is the 1850s.

James: 1850s, right? You probably can say more about

Mike: No, not true. No, no, no, no. I’m not going to pretend I know a lot about this.

James: Oh Contrera. Anyhow, yeah. Ticino is likely the, I would say it’s the poorest Canton in Switzerland around the year 1850. And Ticino suffers from extreme poverty. The effects of the industrial revolution really have not made their way into Ticino. Ticino suffers from overpopulation in certain hamlets, soil degradation.

Also, the climate can be quite unpredictable. In Ticino. You can have blizzards and avalanches, mudslides, and floods. So there is in [01:09:00] to Chino, this custom, and this was not just in to Chino, I should say. This happened elsewhere in Europe too, of seasonal migration. So teaching, teaching us men, supporting their families would travel to France, to Italy, or to Austria to work.

Sometimes with the harvest they would be involved in collecting the harvest. Sometimes they would work in vineyards, in cities like in Milano or in Torino or Leo. They would work as chimney sweeps or as assistants to bakers. And sometimes they also did stone masonry work too. They’re famous for their stone masonry.

And so the chance to change your life so completely by sailing across the world. Doesn’t seem like such a bad option, does it? [01:10:00] It doesn’t seem so ridiculous. And so outside of the realm of tangibility or possibility,

Mike: You can also imagine how romanticized the idea is to travel to the other side of the world where all of the, the, your riches will come true. I, I, you can imagine the story which you read in the newspaper.

James: right, exactly. Exactly. And so some ness had been in the gold rush and they came back tocino. And then you have gold fever as well in tocino. And what ultimately happens to the Teach Nest is really unfortunate. They’re swindled by these travel agents. Many of the teach nests cannot read. So not only are they speaking these dialects, these lumbar dialects, but they can’t read, they can’t write, they don’t understand contracts or, how purchasing a ticket works necessarily.

And they arrived in Sydney. They didn’t arrive in Melbourne. Of course, Melbourne is the city [01:11:00] closest to the gold fields, in Victoria. So there are hundreds of kilometers away and we have no food, no provisions. It’s kind of a disaster, but disaster is avoided. The Victorians believed that although life threw many different challenges at us through human rationale and intelligence, along with good governance, sound economics and charitable work, the evils of the world.

Could be done away with. And so thankfully there were charitable organizations that helped the Teach Inness, the honorary council in Sydney at the time. Louis, I believe, puts notices in Australian newspapers, alerting not just only British and Native Australians of the plight of the Teach Nest, but also the Swiss Emigre community in [01:12:00] Australia as well.

Letting them know that they’re in trouble and many do eventually reach the gold fields and there they face even more challenges.

Mike: I can also imagine if this is, if this news is reaching to Chino, it is reaching every city on earth in the developed world. So everybody wants to get their piece.

James: Absolutely. I mean, you have people who were in the gold Rush in California who sail across the Pacific to go to Australia and do it all over again.

Mike: Hmm.

James: So yeah, I mean, gold fever was real. Gold fever was absolutely real. Now with challenges that they faced in Australia, in the gold fields? Well, you know, I feel funny saying this to an Aussie, but the wildlife in Australia is, it’s different.

It’s in a league of its own with all the poisonous animals. This is something one finds in texts, from European [01:13:00] settlers when they arrive in Australia, when they write about their experiences in Australia. Just how unbelievably different the wildlife are and how dangerous the wildlife are in Australia.

Also, the climate is totally different too. Victoria, like other parts of Australia, is prone to bushfires and these are quite dangerous as well. So it’s not just the animals, it’s not just the climate. These camps where the prospectors lived in shared close quarters we’re not very sanitary. So disease constantly reared its head.

And when you get a lot of young men together and if there’s a lot of booze and a lot of gambling, naturally there are going to be some altercations and some violence too. And the gold fields were quite violent as well.

Mike: Were there already Swiss communities in Australia at that time?

James: Yes. [01:14:00] Yeah. There were, Swiss Romans who were in Australia who had vineyards.

Mike: hmm. Do you know if they ever connected with the tese that arrived? Looking for gold?

James: I think there was some, I, this was a pretty good, I think in their charitable relief. As I said, I know the Honoree Council, who I believe was Swiss Mond, did help. Certain groups of teaching us with, charitable donations. But I don’t know if there was widespread, relief or charitable donations given by, the Swiss Roman c community in these families who owned, vineyards.

Mike: I, I know, I know. I remember in your article you said quite a lot of the ese that actually came to Australia, never actually, especially the ones who arrived in Sydney, never met it to the gold fields and ended up just setting up shop in Sydney as successful stone [01:15:00] masons. And, and, and settling there.

And now we have a culture of ESE people in certain places. Were there any that were very successful?

James: There were some that were successful and many of these went back tocino. And then you have a process of chain migration again. So many of the successful teaching is opened. Hotels or restaurants, and they brought family members and friends to come and settle these various communities. Hepburn Springs, Deford is another in Victoria and Castle Maine as well.

Mike: This is all places where I grew I Bendigo, which is for people listening who aren’t sure is which one of the main Bendigo and Ballarat, which is a two large cities with the most amount of gold. Bendigo is where I went to high school. It hasn’t had anything famous go on there since the 1850s.

James: No, but the, the weather is wild there. It’s actually quite cold in Ballards.

Mike: It can be,

James: For [01:16:00] Australia.

Mike: a different definition of the word cold now that I live in Switzerland.

James: yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, Australian weather too is wild

Mike: It is, especially Victoria, I mean, people in from Melbourne complain about the weather as much as the people in London do. It is not this stereotypical weather you expect, when you come to Australia.

James: Right, right. And so you have them writing about the weather too. So that’s completely new for them as well. Also, they did face some discrimination. So Australia at this point in time is largely settled by, Englishmen and Scots, and of course they’re English, they’re Anglican. If they’re Scots, they’re Presbyterian.

The Teach Nests are Catholic. You do have, and you did already at that point in time, have a migration from Ireland due to the famine in the 1840s. However, where did most of the Irish go? They didn’t go to Australia. They went in mass, of course, first to Great Britain. People forget this, to run [01:17:00] the factories in Manchester, in Liverpool and Glasgow.

Also Cardiff and Wales, and a lot of them went to the United States and to Canada. But there was, there were communities of Irish people at that point in time, but they did face discrimination as Catholics. And I think one legacy that should be more, you know, that ought to be more carefully examined and explored is that of the teaching nest in setting up Catholic institutions and setting up Catholic churches to Catholic schools, Catholic charities, and so forth.

Mike: what is this story and I guess any other story similar. Really tell you about what the, I dunno, the immigration, experience of the Swiss is in the 19th century. Because I’m assuming if you’ve got Swiss going to Australia, you’ve got, you’ve got Swiss going all over the globe for any reason that seems interesting.

What do you, what do you take away from [01:18:00] it?

James: I think first and foremost, these immigrant networks, these communities that are tied to each other across vast distances are really crucial to immigrant success, especially in getting. Getting your life started in a new country. They really were crucial and pivotal in helping people acclimate, meet the right people and get the right resources.

So you kind of hit the ground running, so to say. And this was, are very well organized. I think too that the Swiss, because they value thrift, they value education, they also value, orderliness. They’re quite successful in all that they do. And they pass these, these cultural values to their children and to their grandchildren.

So you have success built into the [01:19:00] future as well. As we’ve said too throughout this conversation, the Swiss do take risks and when they take risks quite often they’re wildly successful. That’s what I tell all of my Swiss friends, be a little bit more, you know, take a little bit more risk. You never know what can happen.

There’s an entrepreneurial streak to the Swiss too, which I very much like. Just a brief example too, speaking of the Teach Nest, the Chenes, the two Chenes brothers immigrated to the United States in the early 18 hundreds, and they set up Del Monaco’s restaurant. Del Monaco’s in Manhattan was the first gourmet luxury restaurant in the history of the United States. They created it from scratch. It was very famous during the Ed Edwardian era, the Gilded Age, as we call it, in the United States. In fact, [01:20:00] some passengers on the Lusitania were at Del Monacos the night before they sailed on the Lusitania.

And I think that. That ability to seize opportunity to be entrepreneurial and to take these strategic risks strikes me as very Swiss.

Mike: There’s a theory which I heard, which I think is quite interesting, and I’m curious if you buy into it or not, where the reason there is such an entrepreneurial spirit in the us and that why that spirit is not necessarily in, say the UK, is because when everyone’s migrating, they’re taking this huge risk of, I don’t know what’s coming and I just hope it’s better.

They, they have that ambition and that mindset and so basically all the people that leave are the ones who have that and therefore in the destination that culture lives on. But all the ones that don’t have that are ones that stay behind and that’s where you separate these two cultures.

James: I’m not sure because I see brilliance. Yeah, [01:21:00] I see variance of brilliance in all populations, right? Not just in diasporas or in diasporic communities. One other thing I forgot to mention when it comes to the Swiss, something that I find remarkable too with the Swiss immigrants or immigrants, they’re very careful about choosing their occupations

and.

They really fulfilled and pursued occupations that were of value, especially in this time period that we’re transitioning from the, the first industrial revolution into the second industrial revolution. So the first industrial revolution is driven by steam and by coal. Second industrial revolution is driven by oil and by steel.

And regardless of what their occupation was, whether they were in dairy production as vitners, as confection errors on an ocean [01:22:00] liner, they did the job well and they were considered masters at what they did. And their skills and their aptitude were greatly valued. And I think that that is, that’s another, ingredient in this Swiss Ingra recipe for success.

Mike: I also love that that reputation really hasn’t changed. Like today. They’re famous for their precision, their quality. I mean, Swiss Quality is one of the, trademark phrases of the country, and I think it’s pretty incredible that they’ve managed to maintain that for so long. I.

James: I think too, Switzerland’s was quite poor for so long too. And I think many Swiss people, when they talk about their ancestors, they realize just how difficult it was for their ancestors to eek out a living, especially in the alpine valleys in the mountains. And I think that they were cognizant of the fact that when there were [01:23:00] new opportunities before them, they not only needed to seize them, but they needed to capitalize on them in order to give the next generation a leg up.

In order to, yeah, leave something of value and leave something of worth and meaning to the next generation so that their lives would be better too. I feel that, yeah. There’s this, yeah, there’s this sentiment when I read texts by Swiss Emigres and by Swiss immigrants. They’re really focused on the future and on what they can give the next generation.

Mike: Well, James, you are probably one of the best non Swiss, Swiss advocates I have ever. You prob. Are you Swiss now? Not

James: No, no, I’m not. I’m not. We’ll see for like us.

Mike: Yeah, I think you should hook up with, Swiss tourism ’cause I think you, do a great job in representing the [01:24:00] Swiss, in a way that they deserve. And I think the way you’re able to tell these stories has been really incredible. So thank you a lot for your time. This has been a great conversation.

James: Thank you. This has been such a pleasure and thanks so much for reaching out to me. I love hearing from readers. I love hearing from those who are interested in the past and also how it still shapes our present and will shape our future. So I was so delighted when you reached out to me, Mike, and we can continue this over beers perhaps at some other point in time.

That would be really fun.

Mike: And so, of course in the show notes, I’ll be linking all the articles where you can learn a lot more about these. But, James, if other, if people want to go learn more about you and your work, based on what they’ve heard today, where can they go?

James: Yeah, so unfortunately I’m working on my website, so it’s offline, but I’m easily found. I mean, if you put my name in a search engine, you’ll find all sorts of things. I have a big, digital [01:25:00] footprints. A lot of people connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m easily found there. I’m James Blake Wiener. That’s W-I-E-N-E, RVE, like wiener, like Veen, Vienna.

And of course you can find my articles on Swiss history through the Landis Museum’s blog website.

Mike: James, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciated this conversation.

James: Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

Mike: Bye-bye.