Navigating the Swiss Job Market: Insights from a Top Recruiter (#04)

Episode Summary: Insights into the Swiss Job Market

Jelena is a seasoned Talent Acquisition Professional in Zurich, with extensive experience in recruitment in a number of companies, big and small. The conversation delves into the challenges of finding the right talent in today’s competitive job market, along with the key attributes she values in potential candidates.

Expect to learn about how you can stand out when applying for a job, whether you should use the one click submit feature of LinkedIn, the influence of cultural backgrounds on interview dynamics, how biases can affect hiring decisions, and Jelena’s perspective on whether it’s more effective to contact recruiters directly versus following traditional application processes and much more…

About Jelena: Talent Acquisition Specialist

Jelena is a highly experienced talent acquisition specialist with extensive knowledge of the Swiss job market. Her expertise lies in guiding candidates through the recruitment process and helping them excel in interviews and applications. With years of experience working with Swiss companies, Jelena provides invaluable insights into what it takes to succeed professionally in Switzerland.

Transcript

Read the full transcript of my conversation with Jelena, where we dive into actionable tips for job seekers, cultural nuances of the Swiss workplace, and advice on connecting with recruiters. Learn how to make yourself stand out and thrive in the Swiss job market.

Mike: [00:00:00] Jelena, welcome to how it ticks. How are you?

Jelena: Thank you so much, Mike. I’m doing very well. Thank you.

Mike: I wanted to start with a big one and that is the problem that I perceive we have when it comes to recruiting on both sides of the fence. I feel that applying for a job as a job seeker is really tough.

You feel like you apply for a lot of jobs. You don’t hear back. Each job application seems to be asking more and more of you, or you see all these different jobs, which just don’t quite seem to fit your profile. And then on the other side, as a recruiter, my understanding is that it is incredibly hard to find the talent that you’re looking for.

So I wanted to get your view on why is this such a challenge?

Jelena: Yes, it is definitely hard. It is indeed a challenge. Um, there are multiple reasons why the problem exists. There isn’t just one. [00:01:00] One, uh, main reason, one of the main problems in my experience is the skills gap that becomes evident when sifting through applications for open roles.

I mean, there is often a mismatch between the skills that employers need and the skills that a job seeker possesses, and sometimes that can be due to job seekers. Applying for roles that they are not qualified for, but sometimes the reason is also that, um, technological advancements and industry changes, um, have happened and that results in the demand for certain skills, um, outpacing the actual supply.

And another reason in my view are inefficient hiring processes that Happens in a lot of companies you’d be surprised and what I mean by that are for example lengthy and cumbersome processes including slow responses from employers Or complicated application processes with multiple interview steps in place [00:02:00] Um, I mean who hasn’t you know Applied for a job opening and waited for a response for weeks, or maybe perhaps never received a response.

I think we’ve all been there at some point. And, um, what also happened is that we saw a rush in hiring workers around the globe and across industries during the pandemic. But, uh, when companies, um, during the pandemic companies were actually doing anything they could to make it easier for people to apply, but this has changed in the meantime, massively, especially in the last one or two years and companies are actually going back to their old habits of putting like candidates through lengthy processes.

Um, and, um, yeah, really, you know, uh, putting a lot of steps in the interview process, which also leads to candidates. Um, Yet withdrawing from their applications or not wanting to go through the application process anymore. Another factor is the cultural fit. And, um, this [00:03:00] has actually gotten an increasing importance.

Um, the match between the company culture and the individual, if you, for example, ask my parents whether when they were young, when they were choosing their work based on a company culture, they would just laugh and say, well, you know, back then they were just happy they got a job. And in the end, it’s just a job.

But with the new generation entering the workforce, I think company culture and values are becoming increasingly important and finding the right talent that fits the company. Culture has become more of a challenge for for companies. Um, by the way, this is also true for job seekers. As they are also being more picky and conscious of what company they are joining and what company they want to Work for they are looking more closely on culture on values the mission of a company They value things like work life balance How how the company Handles failure, for [00:04:00] example, is there a transparent communication, et cetera, et cetera.

Um, last but not least, one factor I noticed has been a struggle since I started my career years ago is the difficulty of providing an accurate job description. Oftentimes, um, what is written in a job description does not always fully reflect what the job actually will be about and what core skills an applicant will need to be successful.

And at the same time, applicants often miss to write precise and comprehensive resumes. Um, they don’t. Sometimes they don’t highlight their skills and experiences in an understandable way, or they just don’t use the correct or the precise words. Um, so qualified candidates can actually get rejected as they’re not being recognized by the recruiter, which is a pity.

And, um, one thing I wanted to mention, I recently listened to a TED talk by a public speaker and an entrepreneur in the recruiting industry. And she mentioned that according to studies, the average time for a recruiter to [00:05:00] screen a CV is six seconds, which is really, really short. It’s not a lot of time. Um, of course, this is just an average number, but looking at my, I would say, experience, I would probably agree that success, six seconds is not too far, um, off from, from the reality, what I also see.

And one can only imagine this, that this can lead to, you know, not recognizing qualified candidates, even though they apply for the right job. Yeah, and then what I also wanted to mention lastly, in my opinion, the hardest part about finding good talent is recognizing whether someone is adding fluff to their resume or whether they are actually as skilled as they claim.

So that’s also sometimes quite hard to, um, to see.

Mike: What are your thoughts on candidates contacting you directly on job ads, job application platforms, LinkedIn, [00:06:00] versus going through the formal job application process?

Jelena: Yeah, while I understand that and why certain job seekers contact recruiters directly on LinkedIn, and while it also shows that a person is determined to get a job and is genuinely interested, I have to say that, Most recruiters don’t have the time to read and reply to every single message on LinkedIn or on other platforms individually.

I mean, there is a reason why. Why we set up an official application form and why this is being used. I mean, unless you are maybe prompted to send a message directly to the recruiter on the job ad, um, and there is a reason why employers ask you to submit your application through a structured application form.

It just makes the recruiter’s life a lot easier. It contributes to the efficiency of, of our job. And, um, I, myself, I work in a medium sized team. scale up in the FinTech industry. And oftentimes I receive hundreds of applications [00:07:00] for an open role, even though we are not that, um, well known in the industry, we have only been founded five years ago, so we’re a very young company still, there are certain jobs that really attract a lot of applications and going through all applications takes a lot of time, as you can imagine.

I definitely spend, you know, a big chunk of my time really screening CVs and reading applications and having a structured way of screening all applications in my applicant tracking system makes me more efficient than having to look through messages on LinkedIn and responding to everyone individually.

I would, I would actually also assume that chances are. Job seekers will receive a standard template response from, from a recruiter saying, Hey, thank you for your interest, but please apply through our job application form and we will get back to you. So my tip in the end would be if you applied for a job, if you did apply for a job at a [00:08:00] company and you really need to contact a recruiter or the hiring manager for a certain reason, and the reason must be.

of importance and not just to say, Hey, I have applied. Please look at my CV. Um, check the website or maybe the career site of the company. Um, every company usually has that and contact them through a contact form on their page. Most companies have this function. So you’re more, more likely to say, to get a response, um, in a timely manner.

And, um, what I also want to mention, perhaps I’m not saying. Please never contact a recruiter on LinkedIn ever as LinkedIn is basically our second home and we spend a lot of time on it. Um, but if you, if you are in the same industry and you’re genuinely looking to create a connection with a recruiter that might offer a mutual benefit, I would definitely say it’s not a bad idea to reach out, but you should do it the right way.

But that’s another topic for another time. [00:09:00]

Mike: Got it. So to everybody listening, recruiters are people too, guys. Give them a break.

Jelena: Exactly.

Mike: Of all of the applications that you get, you said a lot of them are generic and you need to filter them out. Approximately, what sort of percentage of all of the applicants you get do you seriously consider based on the quality of the application?

Jelena: On average, um, perhaps speaking of Switzerland or in general of Europe, um, the number of job applicants being rejected upon initial application is quite high. Um, based on my experience, it is above 90%. It’s a lot. It’s the majority of the applications. Of course, this depends very heavily on in the industry on the job role.

Also, the economics conditions, um, how the workforce is in in each country, but looking at the past five years in [00:10:00] my recruiting career, I can definitely say that I have usually had to reject at least 90 to 95 percent off all applicants based on their application and only about 10 percent of applicants progress to a first interview.

Um, it’s quite a high number of rejections, and for the reasons I believe that, um, I mean, a lot of them I have mentioned in the first question, um, for example, applications lacking the relevant experience and skills, or applicants not fully understanding the core requirements for the job, um, maybe the job ad has been written very poorly or vaguely, um, expectations mismatch, et cetera.

Sometimes it’s even just the volume of applications that we receive for a role. I have also witnessed that, um, we had applications for a certain role and we had, volume of the applications was so high. We had to reject people just based on the fact that we have enough, we had [00:11:00] enough. Qualified candidates and we just possibly couldn’t interview everyone that happens as well.

Um, depending again, depending on the role and the industry, of course, but there are various reasons for it, but it’s quite a high number. I don’t know if you expected that or if this comes as a surprise,

Mike: I think that. The feature, the one click submission for a job application must be the worst feature. I mean, that must be part of the problem when you can see a job ad and the one click apply button where I guess it pre fills a form and sends it to you, that must be part of the reason.

Do you think that it’s partially up, did you agree that these platforms tend to not be ideal for precision matching?

Jelena: Yeah, well, applying for jobs, as we all know, can be a very cumbersome process. You know, you could easily spend hours manually entering your work history into an online application, [00:12:00] uploading a keyword optimized resume or tracking down the hiring manager’s name for a customized cover letter or whatnot.

Um, that’s You know, one would actually think the easy apply option on LinkedIn would solve that problem. And while it does make for a great candidate experience and saving a lot of time, it does have its drawbacks. I would, I would say, um, you have to imagine that as a recruiter, when we receive an easy apply application, All we see is a snapshot of an applicant’s LinkedIn profile, namely a photo, a headline, past and present job titles.

We see the education and we also see the skills that the person has listed, but it requires a profile that is really up to date and filled with information, just like it would be in an actual resume. So in case your LinkedIn profile is really in top shape and you Regularly and you have lots of information on there.

You can definitely use the easy apply option And I would [00:13:00] even say it will guarantee the same chances to land an interview As if you had applied through the regular way, but um, um And and by the way, many don’t know this but you can actually attach also a real resume to the application Even though you are using the easy apply function, but I would only recommend that that function in case your linkedin profile is really um You Yeah, in top shape.

And you have lots of information and detailed, um, descriptions on your past experiences on there. Um, and, um, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s in case your LinkedIn profile is not very extensive and your experience is not described in more detail, I would probably go, uh, through the classic way. And what I also noticed happening is it does let people, you know, Just go on an application blip for roles that are not relevant for them So kind of like an apply and pray method people just randomly applying for jobs not [00:14:00] reading the actual job description just seeing based from a title based on a title whether um, they want to apply or not, so I would you know, I would also be more careful with that and be mindful of um applicants that just Yeah throw out applications

Mike: That’s interesting as well, especially for big companies where HR would be quite detached from the roles which they’re trying to fill.

How difficult is it for a recruiter trying to find the right fit when the recruiter themselves doesn’t actually know anything about the role necessarily?

Jelena: I like this question and I have quite a clear opinion on that. I believe that you have to have a certain level of know how off the business that you know, your company’s doing, you have to understand you don’t have to be.

The pro and the expert in the things that they do. Obviously, you can’t be that. I, for example, I mean, I’ve been recruiting a lot in the [00:15:00] engineering side and like tech profiles and product managers and whatnot. And I mean, I’m far from being an engineer. I have no idea what, you know, how to be an engineer and everything.

I, I couldn’t be an engineer, obviously, but still, I have to have a certain level of know how and, um, Yeah, information on what are they doing? What are they working on? What exactly, what technologies are we using? What is the tech stack that people use in our, in our company? What’s the culture like? Um, how do they work together?

Are we working in agile way or are we working in a different like methodology? So you have to have that kind of know how to be successful in my opinion. I think that makes the difference between being a successful recruiter and being someone who’s probably Might be successful as well, but will struggle more to find the proper and the right profile and also will Spend a lot of time wasting searching for the right profile So I think the more you know about the business and what these people [00:16:00] do in their role the more like the more successful you’ll be and the less time you’ll need to to actually find and to to fill a role

Mike: In that case, qualities do you look for in a good candidate then?

And I know that must be a general question, but are there sort of specific things which stand out when it comes to matchmaking?

Jelena: Good question. I. Usually try to look at three main areas to look for in a candidate. Um, of course, the first and most important one are technical skills. Um, the second one would be the soft skills, which is obvious as well.

And the third one, the cultural fit. Technical skills, um, and qualifications could include anything from relevant work experience, education, certifications, et cetera. They are especially important when you look at, um, technical professions, for example, software engineers, data scientists, and, and these type of, of roles.

Um, in the [00:17:00] past, um, I would say five years, I focused a lot on, on tech recruiting. So, The technical skills were really the most important skills I had to look out for in CV. So for me, they are very, very important and basically something you cannot really negotiate on. Um, unless someone has maybe at least 70 percent of the technical skills required for the role.

Um, the, the soft skills would probably be You know, communication skills, um, problem solving skills, also adaptability, for example, you know, can a candidate thrive in a fast paced, um, environment? Um, as I mentioned, I currently work in a scale up environment and, um, we really have a high pace, um, and the dynamic environment.

So looking at, um, the cultural fit, as well, how will, The person thrive and and survive in [00:18:00] in this fast paced environment is is very important. This is really crucial. Um, how they work in a team as well. Um, that’s also very important when it comes to cultural fit. Um, I also look at the candidate and how much they allow align with our company values and work ethic.

Do they share the same values? Or similar values as us as a company, what I like to envision. This is maybe something that is not as obvious. And this is something that I always try to ask myself when I interview a candidate, um, is how much long term potential does the candidate have in our company? Can I imagine and see them being.

Um, in the role for a longer period of time. Um, can I also imagine them being a role model for our company going to set positive examples for others to follow or not? And this is something that I always try to, um, ask myself and [00:19:00] consider. When putting candidates forward to the next interview step, I also like to ask candidates the question what they get out of the job.

So basically hearing their motivation and main motivator. Um, and just wanting to see whether they have a genuine, intrinsic and also logical reason. Why they want to join us as a company and why they want to be in this role um, this is something where a candidate can actually really stand out amongst all applicants and Something that makes them unique.

So If you’re applying for a role always think about that think about your motivations your intrinsic motivations and what’s your core? Value and why you want to be in this in this role and why are you joining this company and not another company?

Mike: How does one demonstrate good problem solving skills or communication skills on a CV?

I mean, I understand when it [00:20:00] comes to a face to face interview or some form of case study where you can actually see the person think, you can get a bit of an idea, but Is there any advice you can give to people to be able to demonstrate? If I was applying for jobs, I wouldn’t naturally think to write about explicitly all of the problems I can solve or all of the amazing conversations I have.

I feel like generally you want to find a way to incorporate that message in your experience somehow, but that’s quite hard to get across.

Jelena: Well, that is indeed not as easy. I mean, everybody can write in their CV. Hey, I have great problem solving skills, but, you know, it’s not proven. Um, I probably say and what I would recommend that, um, they could try mentioning mentioning quantifiable achievements, like, for example, specific projects or tasks that they have worked on.[00:21:00]

Where they identified a problem, they successfully resolved it, they can use numbers, they always work very well. Um, an example would be, okay, by how much did they decrease the cost for a company, etc. I’m also a big fan of writing real examples of actual problems that one has faced and how they actually solved it.

So, uh, here was a problem and this is how I solved it. for this. Is always something that is getting attention from recruiters but also hiring managers and in the end I mean everyone faces challenges in their work all the time. So Write about them and explain Um what you did to overcome them is is very helpful.

I think that’s one way to demonstrate your problem solving skills um, perhaps you interacted with a difficult customer that was upset and you were successfully able to handle the situation or When the client over That could be an example. Um, [00:22:00] one example that I have from, from my past experience, I once had to, um, recruit a sales representative, um, in my previous company.

And what they did was amazing, even though they did not have any experience whatsoever, they sent in a video. Recording them and showing how they basically took the role as a sales representative in our company. And they presented a sales pitch to a executive where they actually, um, mentioned the problem that this executive is trying to solve and how the company I worked for could solve that.

So they actually took the role. An example and said, Hey, this is probably a problem that you as an executive have, and this is how our company can solve your problems. So they did a very great job in really demonstrating problem [00:23:00] solving skills, um, by actually recording a video and sending a video, which would be a good example for people to do.

Mike: Interesting. That was actually going to be my next question, which was some of the more effective ways for applicants to get noticed by recruiters. And so that’s helpful because I also struggle myself when I think about when I have thought about applying for jobs in the past. Do I want to go and take the risk in trying something different to stand out, whether it’s the language I use or the way I present my profile, or is it better to provide it in the form which you sort of think it’s being expected?

Are you able to maybe give some tips for job seekers on some of the ways Yeah,

Jelena: so this also comes down to where are you applying, like, where is the, the [00:24:00] country or the market that you’re applying in for the role? So it’s also a bit of a cultural thing. Um, question and aspect to it. Um, for example, I’m just bringing this example, like, um, having lived in, uh, Japan for a year in Tokyo and seeing how it works, uh, there, it, there are some differences, um, when it, when you compare it with, for example, I don’t know, hiring in the U S perhaps, or in the UK or in other countries or in Europe, even, um, in Japan.

Kind of, um, trying something that’s out of the box or that looks a bit different and trying to stand out. It’s not going to bring you the job. Um, definitely because you’re just gonna, yeah, not come across as like, okay, I fit into the structure and I am a trustworthy candidate that is worth having an interview.

In Japan, it’s very heavily focused on like, um, Like standardizing everything being like fit into the the [00:25:00] format, uh, not stand out at all But rather really fit in it is very very important It’s something that you know, japanese people put a lot of effort in and also put a lot of like emphasis on Looking at Switzerland, I would probably say it is definitely worth a try and it’s not something that will be contra productive or counterproductive.

I think that you can definitely do it in Switzerland and stand out and try to maybe, um, yeah, be a bit more creative. I don’t know, maybe send a video with your application and say a few words so that people can see or, you know, The recruiter can see, um, how, how you sound, how you communicate, how you come across and what your real motivation is.

I’ve seen people do that, send videos or link to a video, or even like a link to their, um, personal homepage website, where they have, um, demonstrated some of their projects that they’ve done, like some personal projects or some, you know, sneak peek into their work that they have, they have been [00:26:00] doing, um, so that our recruiters can get a grasp on.

Okay, what, what does this person bring besides the CV. The thing is, I have to say, and I have to come back to this topic again, the pressure of like, yeah, being cost efficient, but also like time efficient and like not spending too many resources on this topics and sifting through CVs is immense and I think it has increased in the past years.

So there isn’t really a lot of time to look into every single application, even though, I mean, I can at least say that for me and my team, we still do look at every single application that we receive, but the time that you have, um, to get to spend on each application is just very limited. And if you want to stand out, do it in a way that, you know, is not going to take an hour, um, of a recruiter’s desk because they’re just not going to spend the time.

Mike: Okay. Be loud and bright, but make it quick. Exactly. Okay. Tell me about Japan. I’d [00:27:00] be really curious to know what the differences were between, I mean, so based on what you said, it sounds like you were a recruiter over there for a time period. What is some of the differences between Japan and Switzerland when it comes to hiring people?

Jelena: Exactly. I’ve actually spent a year there, um, being in recruiting. I have spent, um, a year working for a recruiting agency, um, so basically being a consultant and, um, placing candidates, um, to, to, in, in jobs, uh, for, uh, our Japanese clients, um, there were um, Largely, I would say global clients. So companies that were operating, um, on a global level that perhaps had like a Japanese headquarters or an office.

And we’re looking for candidates who also were able to be in a global role. So, um, Yeah, during my time there, um, I did notice, um, some [00:28:00] differences between Switzerland and Japan, for sure. Although I have to say, and that’s something that really, yeah, kind of, um, I noticed that when I was, when I was just, I, when I just moved there, that a lot of things in Japan are very, very similar to Switzerland.

For example, Japanese people and Swiss people, um, put a lot of emphasis on being, um, punctual, for example. So they value, you know, your time. And that’s, for example, a similarity that they have. They’re very organized people as well as, you know, same as Swiss people. So there is a lot of similarities as well that I was a bit surprised to be honest, because the Japanese culture is nothing like the Swiss culture.

It’s just really Really entirely different in general. Um, some of the things that kind of stood out to me was That’s what I was just mentioning like the resume cv Like in switzerland, you really have like this typical like one or two pages focused on professional experience Um, also like a photo is commonly included as [00:29:00] well.

You put education and skills in it And then whereas in japan, it’s like there are I think You two or three different like types of CVs or resumes and depending on your level of seniority and depending on the industry and depending on what kind of profession you have you choose one or the other or the third and then for example one of them is like just a standard resume format that kind of includes personal information but also work history and is actually handwritten which I haven’t seen in Switzerland for like I think I don’t know 15 or 20 years I think When I was a child or child when I was, you know, young, I probably did that, but I haven’t seen that in a very, very long time.

Uh, but then there are also like other types of CVs, but that was like something that I’ve seen there that really surprised me a lot. Um, which was, you know, a huge difference. I think one of the things that I mentioned before is definitely, you know, this like fitting the The standard in Japan, [00:30:00] not standing out, uh, not being extra, not like, you know, kind of coming across in a weird way.

Like you really want to stand like you want to fit in for sure. And you don’t want to stand out. Um, At any cost. Um, I think that’s something that was kind of the big, biggest differences that I, that I saw. I also, what I noticed in Japan, the, the way people talk to each other and the way you interview candidates is very, very formal, is extremely formal.

You basically are talking to someone in a very, very professional way. It’s very formal. It’s very organized structure. You can only ask certain questions. It’s very limited. Like to what kind of questions you can actually ask it also depends heavily on the level of seniority and what kind of position you’re interviewing for so you have to be very careful talking to these people and making sure that you really ask only questions that are kind of allowed, so to [00:31:00] speak.

I think in Switzerland, it’s a bit more informal. You can actually also joke around a bit. You can bring an icebreaker in the beginning of the conversation. You can also like perhaps even talk a little bit private stuff like personal things, ask them about hobbies. I think that’s something that’s rather like, you know, To your advantage as a candidate, like talking about, I don’t know, your mountain trip or hike on the weekend.

Whereas in Japan, that’s just like a no go. Like you just don’t go there. Um, so kind of the formality and you know, how distant and how I would almost say impersonal things are in Japan surprised me the most probably.

Mike: Does that mean there’s less? What do you think is the biggest difference in company culture in Japan, do you think, because everyone is so formal that it doesn’t allow a company culture to become its own thing?

Jelena: Definitely. I would definitely say that culture, like, company cultures in Japan are probably, I wouldn’t say [00:32:00] unique, But, you know, very interchangeable and very similar. There are just a set of rules that you have to stick to as an employee, um, but also as an employer, and it’s not bad. It’s, it’s also like, there’s a lot of good things about it.

And it’s also something that probably makes people kind of, um, you know, Separate better personal life and professional life and they don’t have to ask themselves. Well, do I have to, I don’t know, um, do I have to be different or what do I do in this situation or in that situation? There’s just a set of rules that you have to follow and you kind of learn them from, you know, Your childhood on so, you know how to behave, you know, what’s Appropriate and what’s not and I think that makes a lot of things easier But then at the same time it also doesn’t allow for any kind of individual um personality traits or characteristics, um, obviously i’ve never worked in a proper japanese company, uh, The company I worked for was a british company [00:33:00] and our culture was a bit different.

I would say Probably say that’s what I grasped from my candidates and from the people I talked to in Japan.

Mike: I suppose you wouldn’t have the problem of needing to sift through 80 percent irrelevant CVs to find the 20 percent because you’re not going to get people just applying for anything. I suppose that case it simplifies your job.

Jelena: It does, it does. And also there is one difference as well that in Japan a lot goes through agencies. So basically people who are going through recruitment agencies that are going to apply through agencies, they’re already pre qualified, they’re already talked to, they’re already like, you know, it’s already clear that they have the skills and the necessary experience and qualifications that they need for the role.

Um, a lot of things also happen through network in Japan. That’s probably very similar to other cultures and other countries as well. [00:34:00] Um, where actually the, the success rate of, you know, kind of getting the role and being successful in the role is, uh, makes it, uh, higher or increases it.

Mike: Now talking about different cultures, what about different cultures in a country like Switzerland?

applying for the same job. So this is a country like most of Europe, but there’s lots of different, it’s a mixing pot of cultures. How do you factor that into your recruitment and interviews? And to give an example of what I mean, me being Australian, Australians are very similar, I think, to the U. S. In general, where we typically upsell ourselves quite a lot when it comes to CVs and interviews, we typically, you know, exaggerate, not typically, but it’s normal to exaggerate and inflate your experience to get people’s attention.

Whereas I’ve noticed, uh, very quickly during my interview processes in Switzerland, that it’s very different here in the Swiss people. Generally, it’s like, this is my experience. This is what I’m capable of. Do you factor [00:35:00] someone’s cultural background in when recruiting to think about things like this?

Jelena: Definitely. I mean, I have to, and I think that probably comes with experience interviewing, I would probably say hundreds of candidates throughout my career. Also being a child of immigrants and people who are not Swiss originally, I believe that I have a very good, Sense and also a very good feeling for, or affinity for people from different backgrounds and different cultures that makes it a much, like a lot easier.

I can definitely say that. Um, and yeah, you just have to kind of be aware of it. I think that’s the one thing I learned the most, you know, be aware of it. You speak to, I don’t know, an American person or you’re speaking to a German. person or you’re speaking to an Australian, you know, they’re going to be different and behaving differently in the interview and they’re going to probably say things in a different way or maybe even not mention certain things.

That is, you know, where all these, um, [00:36:00] steps in the process and interview process come, uh, in place, into place where you actually do assessment with, I don’t know, behavioral questions or you do a case study or you do a technical interview where you, you know, properly assess people’s skills and, you know, At the latest, then you will find out whether a person really has the, you know, whatever they said that they have or not.

Mike: What about gender? Do you also take that into consideration? Like, I mean, men, correct me if I’m wrong, are more likely to apply for a job than they’re underqualified for than a woman. And this is obviously on average, not for the individual. So for things like that, do you keep things like that in mind or do you really try to neutralize gender biases?

Jelena: For sure. It’s a very, very important topic in recruiting in general. It’s basically a topic that you can not like miss or you cannot be part of. No, you can not not be part of, you really have to be aware that, um, you know, being a recruiter and [00:37:00] also working in this field, it is inevitably going to be something that you will have to face and you will have to deal with.

And you will also have to have a clear strategy on it. And. It sounds like a discussion from the past decade. Like, okay, here we go again, this whole gender thing. And I mean, in general, women are not applying as much as men. We do have more applications from men. Uh, that’s for sure. That’s one thing I can say.

I am trying to be a bit more skeptic. Um, You know, looking at men’s profiles versus women’s profiles. So I tend to have this bias where I go like, okay, this woman doesn’t bring probably like 80 percent of the qualifications or 70%, but I’m still going to invite her and meet her because I want to see, you know, what she can and, uh, what the potential is there.

And I know that women, as you said before, on. Like on the average, they just tend to undersell themselves. But in the end, we have a clear target. We want to have a certain amount of [00:38:00] female in our company because we do believe strongly. And again, you know, studies show it that, you know, you will have a very successful and balanced team, um, having both genders on the team.

Mike: I really appreciate you admitting your own biases. I’d be curious to know a little bit more about that. Um, how, how does your previous experience recruiting different people affect the biases affect your hiring of future candidates?

Jelena: Yeah, that’s a very interesting topic and it’s always very hard to talk about one’s own biases and it’s never easy to admit, okay, well, I am biased because it kind of shows a bit of a weakness.

And I mean, we’re supposed to be unbiased and I mean, to every listener out there, in case you have ever interacted with me, um, you probably don’t want to hear, okay, I’m biased and I probably, I don’t know, rejected you because I was biased. But at the same time, I have to say, and [00:39:00] this is true for. Probably the entire population of the world.

We’re all biased human human beings. I mean, It’s not probably, that’s definitely. It’s definitely, yeah. And I think that’s, that’s just human. Uh, we cannot actually, um, negate that. We can also not, like, ignore that. It’s just a fact. Um, I mean, obviously I try to be aware of my biases and try to be, you know, very clear on, okay, Jelena, you have this bias of, you know, okay, this male is probably overselling themselves and the woman is probably not like, um, selling themselves, like they’re selling themselves under value.

And I have to be. Or I try to be conscious of it and aware of it, even just knowing that biases exist and what kind of biases we have is very, is a very important aspect of our job.

Mike: Do you ever let your gut feeling make a decision for you? And I guess that’s probably. a more casual way of saying bias, but if someone just feels right, do [00:40:00] you let that instinct make the decision?

Jelena: Oh, for sure. I think it’s, it’s something again, that’s human, and you can just not, not do that. Like this is impossible to kind of just put your gut feeling away and say, okay, no, I’m not going to listen to my gut feeling at all. And I think my gut feeling has proved me right a lot of times in the past. So I do rely on that.

However, you know, I try to balance it out. So I believe a very healthy balance of like having, you know, the, the facts, the data driven, like, um, evidence that you can show, but at the same time, also saying, well, something, there is something that my gut is saying about this person. It can probably help to make like the final decision and kind of tip the balance the one or the other way in the end when you have like maybe a situation where you have to two perfect candidates, but you don’t know which one to decide and to go for.[00:41:00]

Um, so you can help a lot, like making like the final decision or the final step. It has a lot to do with bias as well, I believe.

Mike: Yeah, I understand that. And I guess it is, I think, acknowledging that you are human is, um, ultimately a good thing, the same way as acknowledging you have biases. I think that’s probably the healthiest way to go about it.

Jelena: Definitely. And to give maybe just. Like an example of how we do things in my current company. Um, I mean, we heard a lot from hiring managers saying. Well, I don’t know it was just the vibe wasn’t right or something felt a bit off with this candidate or my gut feeling said no and this was Sometimes like the only explanation we got why we didn’t hire someone or why we couldn’t offer the position to a candidate So just to go back to this candidate and say well, okay.

What’s the reason i’m i’m not offering you this role Um is because you know, it didn’t feel right. It’s just not a proper rejection reason you cannot [00:42:00] You Tell a candidate this didn’t feel right i’m sorry we’re not going to give you the job so we introduced um also our so called scorecards where we ask hiring managers to complete a set of questions where we ask them for really like facts and data driven like reasons okay has this person what they need in order to be successful in their role or not

Mike: i think that’s important because whilst It’s valid that everyone has a, you can have a feeling towards someone.

It’s also not very appreciated or helpful as a candidate when the reason you weren’t hired is because the vibe wasn’t right. That’s not something you can take away and work on for next time. So I think somehow quantifying it somehow is probably the best thing you can do. What about for the hires which you have done where it wasn’t a good fit?

What do you chalk up the main reason for making the [00:43:00] miscalculations to be? Is it because they weren’t honest in their interview? Was it that they oversold themselves? Was it that somebody misunderstood what the role would be? That kind of thing. Can you, do you think there’s a pattern as to why someone, why previous candidates who didn’t work out, didn’t work out?

Jelena: I believe there could be also, again, a set of reasons. Um, it’s never really the one reason that leads to these kind of situations. Um, sometimes the hiring was quite urgent or you had to find a perfect candidate very quickly. You didn’t have a lot of time or resources. It can really happen that you just take decisions based on the urgency.

Um, based on, I don’t know, operational needs or business needs. Other reasons could also involve that, [00:44:00] um, the candidate has actually really like, yeah, kind of made a very good job in like, Yeah, presenting themselves in a way where at that time we felt, you know, it’s, it’s a great fit it, you know, the candidate brings exactly, you know, what, what we’re looking for.

And that could also be that the company hasn’t done the perfect or the right job in assessing the skills properly or, you know. To the fullest, it really happens rarely. Luckily, this is good. But at the same time, um, yeah, it can happen. And I would probably say the majority of the reasons when it happened, it was really due to like the pressure and the speed of the things that we just, you know, needed someone urgently.

And you just hire someone basically to have someone,

Mike: I guess for Technical roles is probably easier because it’s do you meet these technical criteria? And that’s a bigger percentage of the fit but for some of those roles like generic roles like project manager, uh team lead, [00:45:00] uh, even product owner a lot of these roles require Someone’s, you know, like you said, sorts of soft skills, communication skills, time management, these things, which I guess in an interview setting, it’s much harder to detect someone’s proficiency.

And I guess it’s also difficult to detect how lazy someone is or can be in the office environment as an example, in an interview. So I can imagine the more soft skills orientated roles would be harder to get right. Would that be fair to say?

Jelena: Definitely. I would probably agree with you there. Um, I would also argue that a lot of times it has to do with like, um, expectations and like a miscommunication between the company and the candidate in terms of the community, um, in terms of like the expectations.

So for example, a company, um, is very clear on like, okay, we do things [00:46:00] here. We’re very fast paced. We’re very dynamic. And, um, You know, just looking at the candidate’s profile in the way the candidate talks or comes across or presents themselves Themselves, it can be that they think oh, well, you know, this person is exactly what we’re looking for they seem to be also very fast paced and like a quick thinker and like You know a get it done attitude which then turns out to be A miscommunication or just not aligned in terms of expectations.

Um, and that can really only come to surface when you, you know, when you start a job and when you start working and you actually see day to day. That’s definitely something that’s very, very hard to, um, To, um, yeah, to assess and to fully grasp during an interview process, you would actually have to have them working, uh, in, in your company, in your team environment for like a week or so to be, you know, fully sure that, you know, this is going to work and that’s not something that you typically do.

You don’t really have the time and, um, it’s just not efficient, [00:47:00] um, to do so. I also believe that. A lot of it is also like cultural fit as I just mentioned like this fast paced and dynamic environment this is something that a lot of people struggle sometimes to grasp as in like Okay. Well i’ve been working in a large like corporate environment like in a big company with Thousands of employees and things go very, very slow.

And, you know, taking a decision takes weeks, if not months. And, you know, to do something, you really have to ask like 10 different people and get it approved. And then, you know, joining a smaller company for, for example, a scale up like ours, um, it can actually, You know, be the diff like the opposite and a lot of people are not fully aware of what it actually means working in a bit more like dynamic fast paced environment and That can also shock a lot of people once they start and see oh, well, okay.

I haven’t expected it That way, um, that can also lead to, you know, a mismatch and then, you know, figuring out after only [00:48:00] a few weeks into the new job. Okay, well, this isn’t for me. I don’t think I’m at the right spot.

Mike: What about when someone has taken a job and they realize this job isn’t for me for, you know, whatever reason, the cultural fit, other opportunities, whatever, and, and they, They have that conversation with their employer and says, you know what, I, I, I mean, I’m going to leave, I’m quitting.

And then the employer goes, no, no, no, please stay, you have this negotiation to, to stay. Should someone quit or do you think it’s worth negotiating or having that open conversation with HR, with your boss to try to get to, to try to fix things or try to make things change so they’re more happy there?

Jelena: I like that question.

It’s one of the things I have encountered a lot of times during my career. And it’s something that I have a very [00:49:00] clear opinion on, um, in my opinion. And I mean, having spoken to many job seekers as well in retrospect, you know, um, it is something that kind of, yeah, never goes, um, the way that you expect it to go or that is beneficial for you.

I guess, like, we’re talking about counter offers as in like, you know, an employer giving you a counter offer when you come and say, okay, well, I want to actually, um, yeah, quit and I found another job. And I think what’s important to understand, and this is the first thing I actually ask, uh, job seekers as well is like, I want to understand their motivation.

for changing the job. So what are their needs? What is the main motivator for them to wanting to change jobs and employers? So why are they leaving and why are they looking for a new job and only understanding the core reasons? You can actually say, well, yes, it you know, it makes sense or it doesn’t make sense.

In 90 percent of [00:50:00] the cases, it just doesn’t, you know, it just doesn’t work. Um, Latest after six months these people are out of the company anyway, and they leave the company anyway, because they’re just not getting the appreciation that they deserve um the career progression that they deserve also like the Kind of fulfillment and the intrinsic motivation that they had maybe in the beginning of the job I mean a lot of the reasons why people leave is I don’t know They’re feeling underpaid or unappreciated if it’s about pay, of course the company can pay more But then at the same time I also wonder You I always wonder, okay, why did I have to threat to leave my job just to get paid more like wasn’t that possible before?

Didn’t they value my skills and you know me being in this role? Um, so this is something that I always feel like well It is kind of a sign of a bad culture, but also like not showing The right amount of appreciation towards an employee. And I think that if you value an [00:51:00] employee, if you have a very good relationship with your employees being like a manager or something, um, you can really.

avoid these kind of situations. In my opinion, a counter offer is just not really, it’s never really beneficial in case also it doesn’t generally address your concerns.

Mike: Yeah, I understand that throwing more money at someone isn’t going to necessarily fix the reason they’re not being fulfilled. I also wonder though, I mean, having a conversation with your Boss is about being unsatisfied is hard.

It is a hard thing to do. And I feel like this is something that we are getting worse at because more and more things are virtual. So I wonder if the conversation should happen before the decision in their head is made up and they’re willing to leave. And maybe a counter offer isn’t necessarily the.

Right approach it [00:52:00] is more a open conversation about whether practically things could change because it depends on the reason i suppose

Jelena: i think it’s it’s often times a. a short term fix for A long term underlying issue, you know, and you can’t fix a long term underlying issue Um with like yeah, just kind of hey, here’s more money Or here’s a promotion.

Um, In the end, it’s not going to change, you know, the initial reason and the core reason why you wanted to leave in the first place. So you have to ask yourself, why did I want to leave in the first place and what was my problem? Um, and can this be solved by, you know, staying in the company? And also do I value and do I appreciate the counter offer or do I see this as a sign of like, Oh, okay.

We don’t want to lose you. We’re going to have a problem if you’re not, uh, if you, you know, if you leave us, uh, here’s more money, so. It’s, it’s finding the underlying issue that you had in [00:53:00] the first place.

Mike: Okay, so I have a last question for you as we wrap this up and besides spamming you with job applications, what advice would you give to people currently looking for a job?

And do you have any, any bits of wisdom which people can take away with them when they are going through the job application process? Something that you wish that everyone would know when going through this?

Jelena: In general, um, it’s it’s always very like hard to you know, give like the advice It’s a combination of things again, like, first of all, I will probably, you know, go back and take time to really think about what are your career goals and your interests, like, what does align with my career path?

What is my long term career goal? And what are my interests? Um, you know, what are roles that will help me grow in my desired career path as well? I probably also say [00:54:00] like, you know, look for opportunities where, you know, you can utilize your existing skills, but also like at the same time, develop new ones, looking at like application itself and, um, you know, the moment when you actually decide to, Apply for open job roles.

I would definitely also encourage people to or candidates to Research a lot about the company research about their culture about their values about you know Any know how you can actually get from the internet Maybe even you know, you know someone on linkedin that knows someone that works in his company Try to get as much information as possible and also Try to see whether that matches your preference in work style and environment, and whether this is something, you know, you really, really want before applying.

So that, you know, takes a lot of time, uh, that goes into waste when applying for a ton of jobs. I probably also say like, really make sure to read the job description, make sure you understand what the [00:55:00] specifications are, what the requirements are, and what the job description is. And of course, it is never easy as I said in the beginning to know what exactly the role includes.

It’s always a bit difficult. Writing a job description is very, very hard and making sure that it comes across in a very realistic way, but still try to read the job description properly and carefully and really think about whether this is something you want to apply for or not. Last but not least, what I always, always say, and this is a thing.

Kind of like the most, I think it’s the most obvious tip and advice that I could, that I can give as a recruiter. And this is something I’ve seen a lot. And this is a reason why a lot of people were rejected by me is please don’t send and write. 10 pages, uh, like resumes with 10 pages, because nobody’s going to read that.

And a resume CV shouldn’t be 10 pages long. It’s not a thesis that you write. It’s actually just a short summary of your most important [00:56:00] professional skills and experiences, and perhaps your education. You can, of course, add a picture or you can add some personal, like hobbies or something if you want. Uh, that’s for sure, you know, beneficial.

But in the end, really try to stick to like one or two pages max, um, because that’s going to help a lot in like making a recruiter’s life easier, reading and reviewing your CV.

Mike: Short but sweet. Got it. Uh, before we wrap up, is there anything else you would like to add or share with anybody listening to this?

Jelena: In general, what I also like want to bring across and like encourage people to do more, and I think a lot of people do that already, especially, yeah, again, depending on culture and also like profession. But I think like it’s, it’s also underestimated how much networking can do for you and how much, um, like, I don’t know, just connecting with people, going to events, talking to people and broadcasting that you’re actually on the [00:57:00] search and on the job search and that you’re looking for a specific job can do for you.

So, you know, try to talk about it as much as possible, obviously without annoying your friends or your family or your network or your, your, your ex colleagues, but try to really, Yeah, be honest and open about it. And eventually someone is going to pick up on it and say, Hey, listen, I’ve heard about this job opening and I can recommend you for this role.

So I think networking is really something that’s, um, yeah, kind of being underestimated a lot by a lot of people. So, um, networking is really definitely going to help a lot, um, in, in your job search as well. This is something I would probably recommend, but other than that, I think, and I hope I have summarized my, my most important.

takeaways and views on hiring.

Mike: Yeah, I know. Thank you very much for your time.

Jelena: Thank you, Mike. It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.